Re: On Steve's Fedora Question, and collecting Indy-stuff...

Posted by Michaelson from em12-686.utsi.edu on September 27, 1999 at 10:19:12:

In Reply to: Re: On Steve's Fedora Question, and collecting Indy-stuff... posted by Steve on September 27, 1999 at 10:08:00:

: : Sorry if this is rather lengthy…

: : First of all, I feel like I’m stating what ought to be obvious.

: : We share the interesting hobby of trying to collect reproductions of items used in a series of films. We face many challenges to completing these items. If we are lucky, a company outside of the film industry may have supplied them. Those items are much more likely to have an “audit trail”, if you will, of a fairly well documented history and specifications of production. The MKVII bag, the Alden #405, and even the handmade David Morgan whips are examples of these types of items. They are the “easy” parts of the outfit to collect.

: : It is when we get into the jacket, fedora, shirt, pants, belts, and holsters that things get less certain. Personally, I think that’s when it gets more interesting. These are the items made by the rather fluid costume industry, which supplies those items to the production companies. Individual subcontractors tend to come and go, taking the specifics of how a costume may have been made with them. If you are lucky you will occasionally you come across a Noel Howard or a Peter Botwright, but that is generally not the case.

: : Now on to the question:

: : My "sources" are all on the comments and postings I've read either here on the forum, or the various sections within IndyGear and Indy Diggs. The first site I began hitting on a regular basis for information was Indy Diggs. If you read the section on the “Herbert Johnson's Reproduction” of the fedora, its is pretty clear that Mike Davis chooses his words well so as not to insinuate that the hat you buy from HJ is an authentic and exact replica of the hat used in the movie.

: : To the best of my knowledge nobody at HJ is claiming the hat is anything else. They will claim that they supplied the original. They will tell you the color is not exact on either the ribbon or the felt. The basic hat they use is that for a fedora with a 5.5-inch crown and a 3-inch brim. They know how they cut and shaped the original. You get exactly what they tell you they are giving you, nothing more or less. I think the price you pay for an HJ is based more on their clientele, and not on the fact that its “the hat”.

: : Another thing to note is that the vendors who supply the preformed felt may come and go. Historically, this has tended to be somewhat of a cottage industry, though that is changing to some degree. With the exit of a given supplier may go a specific wooden form, which may or may not have had a common shape. I believe the hat from Raiders has a very singular shape to it. The hats in ToD and LC have a more common shape to them, in my opinion. I think that is why I prefer the original Raiders hat. Remember that nobody ever thought people like us would make a big deal about this. They probably think we are a bit nuts – my wife certainly thinks I am.

: : Finally…

: : The reason I first began looking into the Akubra Bushman as a possible Raider’s fedora was because of a conversation I had with David Morgan about a year ago. I am lucky enough to live just down the road from his store in Bothell, Washington. He is a very nice man, and it is very easy to spend an entire lunch hour talking to him, if you’re not careful. We were discussing the whips he supplied to the production company. He then began asking if I had procured the other items in the outfit. When we came around to the topic of the hat, he made a comment I had never read or heard before; he said that they actually based the original Raiders hat on the Akubra Squatter – a fedora with a 5.25-inch crown and a 3inch brim. At that point in the production of the Raiders, local suppliers in Great Britain were providing the other wardrobe components. That is why HJ was approached to provide the hat. Take that for what it is worth. The man was certainly exposed to the build up for the movie. I would take anything he says about whips as gospel. Hats may be another story. Either way, it was an interesting conversation.

: : On a side note I decided to consider the Akubra Bushman over the Squatter for two reasons. First, the edges on both hats are bound, and I wanted one with a wider brim so I could cut off the area where the edge had been sewn on. The Squatter has a 3inch bound edge, while the Bushman has a 3.25-inch bound edge. The second reason was because of the relative size of my head in comparison to Harrison Ford’s. He wore a 7 Ľ, while I wear a 7 5/8. That is a fairly big difference in size. I therefore wanted a hat with larger dimensions to be able to get the right look on my big head. The Squatter has a 5.25-inch crown, while the Bushman has a 5.5-inch crown.

: : Sorry if this is rather lengthy, but I felt like these were areas that ought to be covered.

: : Cheers!

: : Patterson

: Thanks alot for your response. As anyone who reads my posts know, I am rather obsessed with hats. My wife thinks I am a little nutty too! I found your info very interesting, and I am in agreement with you concerning the different hats used. Keep us updated on this hat you are working on. I would love to see a picture of it when it is complete. Again thanks. steve

Please add my comments to Steve's. At the beginning of the whole Indy franchise you couldn't get ANY positive information regarding any of the items we are now pretty much taking for granted, as the internet as a research tool did not exist. We therefore had to do our own grubbing for information, and as you state very well above, "created" our own source of materials that came as close to the "real" thing as we could conjure up when the "real thing" was not available. VERY interesting info about the hat, via Mr. Morgan. As in any industry info, there are so many hands in the pot during a production that you cannot say catagorically that there was one and one vendor only who supplied this or that. We've seen this slowly coming to light about the jacket, even though we KNOW that we know the Wested of Peter Botwright was the original. We do know that several others sneaked into the production, and so it goes. I also know that the Stetson company had their own fedora used in Temple of Doom, and had an Austrian company produce several models. Exactly where they were used, or even IF they were used is strickly speculation, but they did, and do exist. I own one that came from the set of T of D, and know for a fact that the materials and quality far surpass any version of the T of D Stetson produced just after the movie was released. My hat also came directly from the prop department of Paramount, so why it was there, and what was their plan for them I still don't know. The Morgan story could and very well IS correct. It is just one more piece of that huge puzzle that exists surrounding the IJ story, and thank goodness for that, because it's kept ME occupied for all these years, and as soon as you open one door, another appears with even more mysteries around the production. Neat! Oh yes, Patterson, would you contact me off line. I have some business to discuss with you. Regards. Michaelson

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: : : Sorry if this is rather lengthy…

: : : First of all, I feel like I’m stating what ought to be obvious.

: : : We share the interesting hobby of trying to collect reproductions of items used in a series of films.  We face many challenges to completing these items.  If we are lucky, a company outside of the film industry may have supplied them.  Those items are much more likely to have an “audit trail”, if you will, of a fairly well documented history and specifications of production.  The MKVII bag, the Alden #405, and even the handmade David Morgan whips are examples of these types of items.  They are the “easy” parts of the outfit to collect.

: : : It is when we get into the jacket, fedora, shirt, pants, belts, and holsters that things get less certain.  Personally, I think that’s when it gets more interesting.  These are the items made by the rather fluid costume industry, which supplies those items to the production companies.  Individual subcontractors tend to come and go, taking the specifics of how a costume may have been made with them.  If you are lucky you will occasionally you come across a Noel Howard or a Peter Botwright, but that is generally not the case.

: : : Now on to the question:

: : : My "sources" are all on the comments and postings I've read either here on the forum, or the various sections within IndyGear and Indy Diggs.  The first site I began hitting on a regular basis for information was Indy Diggs.  If you read the section on the “Herbert Johnson's Reproduction” of the fedora, its is pretty clear that Mike Davis chooses his words well so as not to insinuate that the hat you buy from HJ is an authentic and exact replica of the hat used in the movie.

: : : To the best of my knowledge nobody at HJ is claiming the hat is anything else.  They will claim that they supplied the original.  They will tell you the color is not exact on either the ribbon or the felt.  The basic hat they use is that for a fedora with a 5.5-inch crown and a 3-inch brim.  They know how they cut and shaped the original.  You get exactly what they tell you they are giving you, nothing more or less.  I think the price you pay for an HJ is based more on their clientele, and not on the fact that its “the hat”.

: : : Another thing to note is that the vendors who supply the preformed felt may come and go.  Historically, this has tended to be somewhat of a cottage industry, though that is changing to some degree.  With the exit of a given supplier may go a specific wooden form, which may or may not have had a common shape.  I believe the hat from Raiders has a very singular shape to it.  The hats in ToD and LC have a more common shape to them, in my opinion. I think that is why I prefer the original Raiders hat. Remember that nobody ever thought people like us would make a big deal about this. They probably think we are a bit nuts – my wife certainly thinks I am.

: : : Finally…

: : : The reason I first began looking into the Akubra Bushman as a possible Raider’s fedora was because of a conversation I had with David Morgan about a year ago.  I am lucky enough to live just down the road from his store in Bothell, Washington.  He is a very nice man, and it is very easy to spend an entire lunch hour talking to him, if you’re not careful.  We were discussing the whips he supplied to the production company.  He then began asking if I had procured the other items in the outfit.  When we came around to the topic of the hat, he made a comment I had never read or heard before; he said that they actually based the original Raiders hat on the Akubra Squatter – a fedora with a 5.25-inch crown and a 3inch brim. At that point in the production of the Raiders, local suppliers in Great Britain were providing the other wardrobe components. That is why HJ was approached to provide the hat.  Take that for what it is worth.  The man was certainly exposed to the build up for the movie.  I would take anything he says about whips as gospel.  Hats may be another story.  Either way, it was an interesting conversation.

: : : On a side note I decided to consider the Akubra Bushman over the Squatter for two reasons. First, the edges on both hats are bound, and I wanted one with a wider brim so I could cut off the area where the edge had been sewn on.  The Squatter has a 3inch bound edge, while the Bushman has a 3.25-inch bound edge.  The second reason was because of the relative size of my head in comparison to Harrison Ford’s.  He wore a 7 Ľ, while I wear a 7 5/8. That is a fairly big difference in size.  I therefore wanted a hat with larger dimensions to be able to get the right look on my big head.  The Squatter has a 5.25-inch crown, while the Bushman has a 5.5-inch crown.

: : : Sorry if this is rather lengthy, but I felt like these were areas that ought to be covered.

: : : Cheers!

: : : Patterson

: :      Thanks alot for your response. As anyone who reads my posts know, I am rather obsessed with hats. My wife thinks I am a little nutty too! I found your info very interesting, and I am in agreement with you concerning the different hats used. Keep us updated on this hat you are working on. I would love to see a picture of it when it is complete. Again thanks.   steve

: Please add my comments to Steve's. At the beginning of the whole Indy franchise you couldn't get ANY positive information regarding any of the items we are now pretty much taking for granted, as the internet as a research tool did not exist. We therefore had to do our own grubbing for information, and as you state very well above, "created" our own source of materials that came as close to the "real" thing as we could conjure up when the "real thing" was not available. VERY interesting info about the hat, via Mr. Morgan. As in any industry info, there are so many hands in the pot during a production that you cannot say catagorically that there was one and one vendor only who supplied this or that. We've seen this slowly coming to light about the jacket, even though we KNOW that we know the Wested of Peter Botwright was the original. We do know that several others sneaked into the production, and so it goes. I also know that the Stetson company had their own fedora used in Temple of Doom, and had an Austrian company produce several models. Exactly where they were used, or even IF they were used is strickly speculation, but they did, and do exist. I own one that came from the set of T of D, and know for a fact that the materials and quality far surpass any version of the T of D Stetson produced just after the movie was released. My hat also came directly from the prop department of Paramount, so why it was there, and what was their plan for them I still don't know. The Morgan story could and very well IS correct. It is just one more piece of that huge puzzle that exists surrounding the IJ story, and thank goodness for that, because it's kept ME occupied for all these years, and as soon as you open one door, another appears with even more mysteries around the production. Neat! Oh yes, Patterson, would you contact me off line. I have some business to discuss with you. Regards. Michaelson

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