Some of your points are valid, buuuuutt.........

Posted by Indiana Jimmie from 1Cust250.tnt1.portland2.or.da.uu.net on April 25, 2000 at 12:08:13:

In Reply to: Welcoming all feedback on this Star Wars topic. It's a LOOOOONNNG one! Get out your college books! posted by Tiga Forever on April 25, 2000 at 07:44:19:

I wonder how many times you've actually VIEWED this film....
I agree with most of what you say, except for a few small discrepancies:
You talked a bit about character devolopement...Qui-Gonn was the one character I wanted to know MORE about...the film was a big let down in that area. So much so, that when he was killed, I almost didn't care. And I am such a fanboy that I totally shielded myself from any info on the film...so his death WAS a surprise.
Darth Maul was interesting, yes, but all we know about HIM is that he is/was a Sith apprentice.
And Jar-Jar not in the film that much?!? PUH-LEESE! He had 45 friggin minutes of screen time!! Granted, he was really THE most developed character, but why did he have to be so annoying? Lucas had a GREAT opportunity to really delve into the Gungan culture...but by the time we get to it, everyone is so tired of Jar-Jar that we don't care.I actually heard people in the theater saying stuff like, 'would somebody please shoot him?'
I wholly agree on your assessment of Obi-Wan...'nuff said.
My favorite piece of developement is during the senate scene...when the camera focus' on the queen while being told that, basically, nothing will happen soon....the look of anguish and horror for her people/planet is indescribable...which leads me to some of the plot...
Lucas was so busy beating us over the head with the Anakin SUBPLOT, that the real plot became somewhat of a throwaway....Senator Palpatine PERFECTLY manuevers himself into a position to take over as emperor, with a machine-like coldness that I wasn't quite prepared for...BRRR....I actually expected his rise to take place a bit slower...over the course of the first two films, say...but I loved the whole thing nevertheless...and actually found myself getting annoyed when I had to sit through all of the other stuff.
And as for plot holes...without having taken notes on the film during viewing, the one that comes quickest to mind is the construction of C-3PO by Anakin...it is already well-established Star Wars cannon that 3PO is over 400 yrs old! NOT 30-35 as this movie suggests'.....and why didn't he or Artoo remember Tatooine in SW:ANH? Or the name Skywalker? Why didn't Ben remember Artoo? These things were never meant to be...they were afterthoughts....
I'm sorry if you were speaking of plotholes within THP itself...I tend to view this film within the larger structure of Star Wars....otherwise, I really don't think I could've enjoyed it NEARLY as much as I did. I can forgive these minor flaws....I have had to so much with the constant inconsistencies within the Indy mythos (there, that should make this post Indy enough), what with the books, movies, and tv show contradicting each other.
Overall, as I said, I mostly agree with you....but I DO think Lucas should have studied up on his own universe a bit before writing this...
Anyway, thanks for reading,
Indiana Jimmie

"I'm not leaving here without the stones."

: Since this is an Indy group, I will talk about Indy. But first, Star Wars!

: Oh, and no, I would never dare post this in a SW group. I never go to them, and I never will. I have enough trouble finding intelligent people in THIS group these days - not the case when I first started coming here 3 years ago. I won't name names, but it makes me shudder to think what kind of BS happens in any typical SW group.

: Anywhowhatsoever:

: I loved SW-E1:TPM right from the start, though it was and, even after repeated viewings, still is overwhelming.

: Still, all the cries of "lack of story, characters, and soul" always, and especially now that it's on video where we can all dissect it with razors and needles, baffle me.

: TPM has enough plot for ten movies, enough characters for 30, and enough visuals for a hundred more. It had been 16 years since the last one, so George must have felt a need to make up for it in one-shot - just becuase he could. Yet, keep in mind, this is obviously what the original film would have looked a lot like if he had the budget and resources then.

: For all it's heavy-handedness, there is still an immaculate, incredible story going on in this movie. The structure of that story, springboarding from something that was already happening to it's most tense point all at the beginning of the film (and chancing on a lot of confusion - THAT's BALLS!) and using that arc to lead into what is really only the beginning of an entirely different story - it's just a stroke of mad genius! It's very cohesive, intelligent, not a lot of plot holes (I dare anyone to try and think of any) and plain great writing for which Lucas could be, and should be, more often commended for.

: SWE4 didn't really do that, since there really isn't much indication that anything more might happen after the Death Star is destroyed - excepting Vader's survival. If Lucas had never made a sequel, we would all would have assumed that the defeat of the station would have been the Empire's end.

: Sure, Jar-Jar is annoying, but he really isn't in the movie all that much, and then most of his scenes aren't half as badly done as 3P0's cowardly whining in ROTJ. I never understood the 'Jar-Jar is gay' attack. Clearly, C3P0 is in larger offence in the first SW movie. Heck, even MAD magazine made reference to that in '77!

: Character development? You don't need to look farther than Qui-Gon. Liam Neeson brought a lot more to the role than was written for, precisley why Lucas wanted an actor of his caliber. Even still, there is plenty that was written that is more than interesting. At the beginning of the movie he is confident and unflappable - a true Jedi and clearly a fine mentor. After meeting Anakin, his uncertainty seems to be the beginning of a downslide. He is unable to use a mind trick on Watto, unable to defeat the Sith, and is increasingly perterbed by the events unfolding around him. Through Obi Wan's dialogue at Coruscant, it is veiled, but definately hinted at, that QG is really more just a good Jedi warrior than a strong Force user, and that leads to his independance which puts him at odds with the council. Fascinating! This view, I haven't heard anyone else mention, but it is enforced further when QG doesn't evaporate like OW and Yoda do later on.

: Anakin was fascinating. Lloyd had just the right tone, and the only scenes of his that merit criticism are his piloting scenes at the climax, but that's more Lucas' fault than Lloyd's. Being handed a bunch of crappy dialogue like that and told, "pretend yout flying" really isn't much to work with. I have heard professional critics chastise, "Lloyd isn't into his scenes that much" but ISNT THAT THE POINT? His focus is distracted by the fear that his mom will live and die a slave. So in NO scene should he have exerted much enthusiasm, or appeared anything more than "wooden". I believed this innocent but distracted mind could later (or even sooner) be corrupted and turned into Darth Vader.

: Obi-wan was fascinating for reasons that are not so apparent in this movie as a stand-alone, but it's clearly established by the end of the picture that he will be fleshed out more in E2, which is fine enough for me. This movie already had much else to deal with, so there is one area that showed some restraint, but he certainly still "develops" throughout TPM. At the beginning, he and QG are never questioning each other, more a team than mentor and student. On Coruscant, we see there is some friction. OW clearly supports every whisp of the council, and has been frustrated with QG in the past. QG makes several statements throughout that OW is a powerful force user (kinda makes you wonder what his voodoo mojo stuff count was, eh?), and a great Jedi. In the end, we get to see just how powerful OW is, and that's everything QG must have been referring to. OW didn't even have to wave a hand to get the sabre moving, where QG had to just to get the dice to land on the appropriate color! Maul, stunned, couldn't react in time, right? Maybe. If OW was strong enough to complete what he did, then maybe he also dampened Maul's movement ability? I haven't read the books, so I don't know if they try to explain it that way or not, but I'd rather just use my imagination anyway - after all isn't that the real entertainment that SW provides?

: I don't have to say how fascinating Maul was. We're all in agreement on that one, right?

: The Queen, underdeveloped and underplayed? Not really. Nat Portman needs no cred check with any of us either. Her existence in the film is appropriate to illustrate exactly what's at stake in the Trade Fed's war. Her beauty, cosmetically and projectedly, pretty much sums up the innocence of the people of the planet, and her rigidness is the backbone to her plight for peace in turbulent surroundings. She'll be back for more romantic shennanigans at a more appropros age anyway.

: That's exactly the people the movie needed to focus on, any other standouts and groups are just minors who stand out only because the story works so well (i.e. Palpatine, Boss Nass and the Gungans, The Council, Watto and Sebulba, The Trade Federation, etc.)

: There are things that did bother me, but not by much. The voodoo-mojo-count inside a Force user was an entirely unecessary concept, and a real cheap way for Lucas to point out Anakin's potential. I'm pretty sure he MEANT for it to be a thorn in Fanboy's sides, and unfortunately I do fall into that category. But as a smarter, more open minded fanboy, I wince at the opputunity for melodrama that was lost by not having QG or OW able to sense that amount for themselves, or to even see it on display during a racing scene. THAT would have been cool.

: There could have been more to the underwater scenes, or they should have redone them entirely as something less frivolous. They existed just to be a homage to SW's serial/pulp roots, but basically enforced the confusion of a story that was moving too rapidly for most's tastes already. I serioulsy believe there might have been a lot less criticism of the film without them. I initially believed there was going to be an underwater Battle scene, which would have more original than the Braveheart-style campaign that, mercifully, doen't amount to much anyway (ditto for the dogfight in space). At the interest level,, neither was of compare with the saber fight, and the movie was smart to splice them all up, with the screen time in favor of Darth Maul.

: Nonehteless, those are minor quibbles in comparison to the character and story that DID develop in this movie.

: Now, onto Indiana Jones.

: Hardocore sex in Indy 4? Discuss!

: Tiga Forever

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Just to point this out... JuggleEwok 18:12:40 4/25/2000 (2)
- waaayyy to many to name........(follow-up to Bud-Arc...) Indiana Jimmie 22:12:55 4/25/2000 (0)
- Too many to name... bud-arc 18:21:30 4/25/2000 (0)

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: I wonder how many times you've actually VIEWED this film....
: I agree with most of what you say, except for a few small discrepancies:
: You talked a bit about character devolopement...Qui-Gonn was the one character I wanted to know MORE about...the film was a big let down in that area. So much so, that when he was killed, I almost didn't care. And I am such a fanboy that I totally shielded myself from any info on the film...so his death WAS a surprise.
: Darth Maul was interesting, yes, but all we know about HIM is that he is/was a Sith apprentice.
: And Jar-Jar not in the film that much?!? PUH-LEESE! He had 45 friggin minutes of screen time!! Granted, he was really THE most developed character, but why did he have to be so annoying? Lucas had a GREAT opportunity to really delve into the Gungan culture...but by the time we get to it, everyone is so tired of Jar-Jar that we don't care.I actually heard people in the theater saying stuff like, 'would somebody please shoot him?'
: I wholly agree on your assessment of Obi-Wan...'nuff said.
: My favorite piece of developement is during the senate scene...when the camera focus' on the queen while being told that, basically, nothing will happen soon....the look of anguish and horror for her people/planet is indescribable...which leads me to some of the plot...
: Lucas was so busy beating us over the head with the Anakin SUBPLOT, that the real plot became somewhat of a throwaway....Senator Palpatine PERFECTLY manuevers himself into a position to take over as emperor, with a machine-like coldness that I wasn't quite prepared for...BRRR....I actually expected his rise to take place a bit slower...over the course of the first two films, say...but I loved the whole thing nevertheless...and actually found myself getting annoyed when I had to sit through all of the other stuff.
: And as for plot holes...without having taken notes on the film during viewing, the one that comes quickest to mind is the construction of C-3PO by Anakin...it is already well-established Star Wars cannon that 3PO is over 400 yrs old! NOT 30-35 as this movie suggests'.....and why didn't he or Artoo remember Tatooine in SW:ANH? Or the name Skywalker? Why didn't Ben remember Artoo? These things were never meant to be...they were afterthoughts....
: I'm sorry if you were speaking of plotholes within THP itself...I tend to view this film within the larger structure of Star Wars....otherwise, I really don't think I could've enjoyed it NEARLY as much as I did. I can forgive these minor flaws....I have had to so much with the constant inconsistencies within the Indy mythos (there, that should make this post Indy enough), what with the books, movies, and tv show contradicting each other.
: Overall, as I said, I mostly agree with you....but I DO think Lucas should have studied up on his own universe a bit before writing this...
: Anyway, thanks for reading,
: Indiana Jimmie

: "I'm not leaving here without the stones."

: : Since this is an Indy group, I will talk about Indy.  But first, Star Wars!

: : Oh, and no, I would never dare post this in a SW group.  I never go to them, and I never will.  I have enough trouble finding intelligent people in THIS group these days - not the case when I first started coming here 3 years ago. I won't name names, but it makes me shudder to think what kind of BS happens in any typical SW group.

: : Anywhowhatsoever:

: : I loved SW-E1:TPM right from the start, though it was and, even after repeated viewings, still is overwhelming.

: : Still, all the cries of "lack of story, characters, and soul" always, and especially now that it's on video where we can all dissect it with razors and needles, baffle me.

: : TPM has enough plot for ten movies, enough characters for 30, and enough visuals for a hundred more.  It had been 16 years since the last one, so George must have felt a need to make up for it in one-shot - just becuase he could.  Yet, keep in mind, this is obviously what the original film would have looked a lot like if he had the budget and resources then.

: : For all it's heavy-handedness, there is still an immaculate, incredible story going on in this movie.  The structure of that story, springboarding from something that was already happening to it's most tense point all at the beginning of the film (and chancing on a lot of confusion - THAT's BALLS!) and using that arc to lead into what is really only the beginning of an entirely different story - it's just a stroke of mad genius!  It's very cohesive, intelligent, not a lot of plot holes (I dare anyone to try and think of any) and plain great writing for which Lucas could be, and should be, more often commended for.

: : SWE4 didn't really do that, since there really isn't much indication that anything more might happen after the Death Star is destroyed - excepting Vader's survival.  If Lucas had never made a sequel, we would all would have assumed that the defeat of the station would have been the Empire's end.

: : Sure, Jar-Jar is annoying, but he really isn't in the movie all that much, and then most of his scenes aren't half as badly done as 3P0's cowardly whining in ROTJ.  I never understood the 'Jar-Jar is gay' attack.  Clearly, C3P0 is in larger offence in the first SW movie.  Heck, even MAD magazine made reference to that in '77!

: : Character development?  You don't need to look farther than Qui-Gon.  Liam Neeson brought a lot more to the role than was written for, precisley why Lucas wanted an actor of his caliber.  Even still, there is plenty that was written that is more than interesting.  At the beginning of the movie he is confident and unflappable - a true Jedi and clearly a fine mentor.  After meeting Anakin, his uncertainty seems to be the beginning of a downslide. He is unable to use a mind trick on Watto, unable to defeat the Sith, and is increasingly perterbed by the events unfolding around him.  Through Obi Wan's dialogue at Coruscant, it is veiled, but definately hinted at, that QG is really more just a good Jedi warrior than a strong Force user, and that leads to his independance which puts him at odds with the council. Fascinating!  This view, I haven't heard anyone else mention, but it is enforced further when QG doesn't evaporate like OW and Yoda do later on.

: : Anakin was fascinating.  Lloyd had just the right tone, and the only scenes of his that merit criticism are his piloting scenes at the climax, but that's more Lucas' fault than Lloyd's.  Being handed a bunch of crappy dialogue like that and told, "pretend yout flying" really isn't much to work with. I have heard professional critics chastise, "Lloyd isn't into his scenes that much" but ISNT THAT THE POINT?  His focus is distracted by the fear that his mom will live and die a slave.  So in NO scene should he have exerted much enthusiasm, or appeared anything more than "wooden".  I believed this innocent but distracted mind could later (or even sooner) be corrupted and turned into Darth Vader.

: : Obi-wan was fascinating for reasons that are not so apparent in this movie as a stand-alone, but it's clearly established by the end of the picture that he will be fleshed out more in E2, which is fine enough for me.  This movie already had much else to deal with, so there is one area that showed some restraint, but he certainly still "develops" throughout TPM.  At the beginning, he and QG are never questioning each other, more a team than mentor and student.  On Coruscant, we see there is some friction.  OW clearly supports every whisp of the council, and has been frustrated with QG in the past.  QG makes several statements throughout that OW is a powerful force user (kinda makes you wonder what his voodoo mojo stuff count was, eh?), and a great Jedi.  In the end, we get to see just how powerful OW is, and that's everything QG must have been referring to.  OW didn't even have to wave a hand to get the sabre moving, where QG had to just to get the dice to land on the appropriate color!  Maul, stunned, couldn't react in time, right?  Maybe.  If OW was strong enough to complete what he did, then maybe he also dampened Maul's movement ability?  I haven't read the books, so I don't know if they try to explain it that way or not, but I'd rather just use my imagination anyway - after all isn't that the real entertainment that SW provides?

: : I don't have to say how fascinating Maul was.  We're all in agreement on that one, right?

: : The Queen, underdeveloped and underplayed?  Not really.  Nat Portman needs no cred check with any of us either.  Her existence in the film is appropriate to illustrate exactly what's at stake in the Trade Fed's war.  Her beauty, cosmetically and projectedly, pretty much sums up the innocence of the people of the planet, and her rigidness is the backbone to her plight for peace in turbulent surroundings.  She'll be back for more romantic shennanigans at a more appropros age anyway.

: : That's exactly the people the movie needed to focus on, any other standouts and groups are just minors who stand out only because the story works so well (i.e. Palpatine, Boss Nass and the Gungans, The Council, Watto and Sebulba, The Trade Federation, etc.)

: : There are things that did bother me, but not by much.  The voodoo-mojo-count inside a Force user was an entirely unecessary concept, and a real cheap way for Lucas to point out Anakin's potential.  I'm pretty sure he MEANT for it to be a thorn in Fanboy's sides, and unfortunately I do fall into that category.  But as a smarter, more open minded fanboy, I wince at the opputunity for melodrama that was lost by not having QG or OW able to sense that amount for themselves, or to even see it on display during a racing scene. THAT would have been cool.

: : There could have been more to the underwater scenes, or they should have redone them entirely as something less frivolous.  They existed just to be a homage to SW's serial/pulp roots, but basically enforced the confusion of a story that was moving too rapidly for most's tastes already.  I serioulsy believe there might have been a lot less criticism of the film without them.  I initially believed there was going to be an underwater Battle scene, which would have more original than the Braveheart-style campaign that, mercifully, doen't amount to much anyway (ditto for the dogfight in space).  At the interest level,, neither was of compare with the saber fight, and the movie was smart to splice them all up, with the screen time in favor of Darth Maul.

: : Nonehteless, those are minor quibbles in comparison to the character and story  that DID develop in this movie.

: : Now, onto Indiana Jones.

: 
: : Hardocore sex in Indy 4?  Discuss!

: : Tiga Forever

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