Re: Questions about Grail in Last Crusade/Bible

Posted by Sean Dodge from ip231.portland9.or.pub-ip.psi.net on July 26, 2000 at 01:30:24:

In Reply to: Questions about Grail in Last Crusade/Bible posted by Indiana James Erler on July 26, 2000 at 00:21:26:

Actually, this is a good place to look for an answer, especially since we have a resident grail scholar (Mikal) who still hangs out here now and again.
However, since I saw it first, I'll do my best to field this one.

First, you are looking in the wrong place for info about the Grail...I don't mean the Indyfan website, I mean the Bible. Sure the Bible mentions "the cup," how the heck were they supposed to drink the wine? It is mentioned once or twice more during the events surrounding the crucifixion, but more in the abstract...a metaphor for the task and suffering that lay ahead. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the earliest Christians venerated the cup, or any object.
The Grail enters the picure much later...in the Middle Ages, a great deal of interest was shown in collecting Holy relics. Almost any object that might be linked with Christ or the crucifixion became the focus of intense interest and debate. Everyone claimed to have a sliver of the cross, or the burial shroud. The spear, the nails, Christ's robe...you name it, somebody had it in a secret shrine in their church. The cup of Christ was another such relic. It has been suggested that the cup is symbolic of a pre-Christian belief, but that goes deeper than what I've researched. In any event, the Grail became the focus of the quest of the Arthurian Knights in legend, and it was from this source, both the written word and the art of the time, that much of the Grail legend grew. Joseph of Arimathea took on much greater significance than in the Gospels; he became a world traveler who spirited the Grail away to Brittany. There may have been some long-standing tradition to support this; the Mervoginians postulate that the "Grail" was actually symbolic of Mary Magdalene, carrying the unborn child of Christ in her womb. Again, an unsubstantiatable legend.
In any event, as the stories about the Grail, as sought by the Knights of the Round Table,grew with the telling, one popular image was that of Joseph of Arimathea, holding the chalice up to Jesus' side after the fatal spear wound. Perhaps this was an embellishment on the whole "wine into blood" idea, but that is, as far as I know, the basis for what was said in the movie.
While I'm on that subject, I wish they had looked the Arthur legend for most of the rest of LC. That has to be the most unsatisfying climax to a movie that is otherwise wonderful. A knight that lives forever, but can't go anywhere?
Whatever.

Worlds of Adventure

Follow Ups:

Re: Questions about Grail in Last Crusade/Bible Anejo Joe 10:23:27 7/26/2000 (2)
- Anejo Joe couldn't help but wonder.... Tessa 23:21:05 7/26/2000 (1)
  - Re: Anejo Joe couldn't help but wonder.... Anejo Joe 13:29:46 7/27/2000 (0)
Agreed; look to Britain for Grail lore... (and I quote...) Inbanana Jones 05:05:24 7/26/2000 (0)

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: Actually, this is a good place to look for an answer, especially since we have a resident grail scholar (Mikal) who still hangs out here now and again.
: However, since I saw it first, I'll do my best to field this one.

: First, you are looking in the wrong place for info about the Grail...I don't mean the Indyfan website, I mean the Bible.  Sure the Bible mentions "the cup," how the heck were they supposed to drink the wine?  It is mentioned once or twice more during the events surrounding the crucifixion, but more in the abstract...a metaphor for the task and suffering that lay ahead.  There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the earliest Christians venerated the cup, or any object.
: The Grail enters the picure much later...in the Middle Ages, a great deal of interest was shown in collecting Holy relics.  Almost any object that might be linked with Christ or the crucifixion became the focus of intense interest and debate.  Everyone claimed to have a sliver of the cross, or the burial shroud.  The spear, the nails, Christ's robe...you name it, somebody had it in a secret shrine in their church.  The cup of Christ was another such relic.  It has been suggested that the cup is symbolic of a pre-Christian belief, but that goes deeper than what I've researched.  In any event, the Grail became the focus of the quest of the Arthurian Knights in legend, and it was from this source, both the written word and the art of the time, that much of the Grail legend grew.  Joseph of Arimathea took on much greater significance than in the Gospels; he became a world traveler who spirited the Grail away to Brittany.  There may have been some long-standing tradition to support this; the Mervoginians postulate that the "Grail" was actually symbolic of Mary Magdalene, carrying the unborn child of Christ in her womb.  Again, an unsubstantiatable legend.
: In any event, as the stories about the Grail, as sought by the Knights of the Round Table,grew with the telling, one popular image was that of Joseph of Arimathea, holding the chalice up to Jesus' side after the fatal spear wound.  Perhaps this was an embellishment on the whole "wine into blood" idea, but that is, as far as I know, the basis for what was said in the movie.
: While I'm on that subject, I wish they had looked the Arthur legend for most of the rest of LC.  That has to be the most unsatisfying climax to a movie that is otherwise wonderful.  A knight that lives forever, but can't go anywhere?  
: Whatever.

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