I disagree. And here's why....

Posted by Solo4114 from AC81886D.ipt.aol.com on October 25, 2000 at 22:13:51:

In Reply to: Indy Films posted by Indy fan 02380423 on October 24, 2000 at 20:40:01:

Ok. Basically, I reject a few of the notions you have put forth.

Indy's not a male chauvanist. He may be cocky, brash, etc., but he's not a male chauvanist. Admittedly, Indy plays a strong role in all the movies (after all, he IS the hero). But there's plenty of precedent for strong female roles in the Indy pantheon. Marion, as you pointed out, could drink just about any guy under the table. Furthermore, while she may still run like a girl (that always did bug me. Lift your knees, dammit!), she can still kick a little ass. Yes, she needs Indy to save her when the Nazis raid her bar, and yes, Indy does rescue her a number of times when she's helpless, but she still throws a punch like a guy, and can wield a frying pan with the best of 'em. As for an intellectual and sexual equal, we already have Ilsa, who was both aggressive sexually ("I don't like fast women.") and just as educated in the realm of archaeology as Indy was. Just because a girl's pretty doesn't mean she ain't smart or tough, as these two women clearly proove.

Now, I'm not saying we emasculate Indy and have him become completely helpless. Admittedly, part of the charm of Indy as a character is that he's basically a swashbuckler. He does save the girl and win the day in the end (unless the girl is a Nazi sympathizer. oops!). But that doesn't mean that whatever girl is in the movie necessarily has to be completely helpless and inept. I, for one, have ALWAYS hated the character of Willie. Kate Capshaw is a beautiful woman, and a talented actress. But her character, through no fault of her own, just pissed me off. All she did was scream and complain throughout the movie. She's useless. My ideal Indy girl would be one who combines Marion's toughness with Ilsa's intellect, and either Willie's or Ilsa's looks. (not that I have anything against brunettes, mind you) That's basically what I'm advocating for as a female character. Furthermore, keep in mind that just because the girl in my scene kicks the crap out of the bad guys, that doesn't mean that she won't, at some point, be tied to a chair being slowly lowered into a pool of ravenous tiger sharks (or ill-tempered sea bass, if we can't get the sharks), while screaming for Indy to help her at some point. :) Rest assured, Indy is STILL the hero. He's still the guy who saves the day. The girl just isn't always in need of his help, and can take care of herself most of the time.

Incidentally, I disagree that women were not "on the same level" as men in the 30's and 40's (or 50's in the case of my proposed -- and currently rather skeletal -- plot). I think, in fact, that what you're pointing out is that the idealized notion of women during this time period, which was often portrayed in popular cinema of the time, was one where women were typically incapable or, at the very least, defferential towards men. In actuality, there were plenty of strong women at that time. I mean, hell, look at Rosie the Riveter. Or Mae West. Or plenty of other non-famous icons who worked in factories, ran businesses, or fought in the People's Liberation Army in China. The public image of women at the time, I'm arguing, is not necessarily how things ACTUALLY were. :)

Now then, on to some other points, brought up in other threads (we really should combine all the Indy IV threads into one separate forum...). I do NOT like the idea of more generations of Joneses. Dad was enough. The daughter thing is intriguing, but I agree that it would rob Indy of some of who he is. Admittedly, age will do this to a certain degree, and being around trained female martial artists would similarly do so, but ultimately, I think Indy's not the family type. I mean, it's not like he has a great role model for that kind of behavior, anyway. From what we can tell in the movies, his dad and he hardly had any kind of relationship at all. As for bringing Short Round back, it's interesting, but I think that, if he's back, he should be somewhat of an independent type. Perhaps he's escaped China after the communist take-over, or perhaps he's joined in simply in order to survive. At any rate, I think he should play a minor role. Maybe we're not even entirely sure it's Short Round until later in the movie when he reveals himself to Indy. Who knows.

As for anyone BUT Harrison Ford playing Indy, were I the producer, I would absolutely veto it. If Ford won't do the picture, the picture won't be made. That's because Ford IS Indy. I mean, honestly, can you really imagine anyone else doing justice to the role? Some people have said we could pass the torch, a la James Bond. And yes, they could do it. But, like with James Bond, while the subsequent movies might be entertaining, they would never really recapture the magic of the originals. I mean, honestly, to me, James Bond IS Sean Connery. He's just been PLAYED by other actors. :) Don't get me started on the Bond thing, though... Part of the appeal of Indy is that he does age, he is human, and he has weaknesses. Look at the scene in the boat in Raiders. Like he says, it ain't the years, it's the mileage. And any new Indy movie would have to incorporate both years AND mileage. That's the thing, though, despite all of that, despite the fact that Indy'd basically be 15 years older now, and has been on plenty of other adventures, he's STILL tough. Maybe not as tough as he used to be, maybe he doesn't bounce back from a beating quite as fast, but he still holds his own and can kick ass. Anyway, here endeth the thoughts for now. :) I'll undoubtedly post more at a later date.

Dan Shay

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: Ok.  Basically, I reject a few of the notions you have put forth.

: Indy's not a male chauvanist.  He may be cocky, brash, etc., but he's not a male chauvanist.  Admittedly, Indy plays a strong role in all the movies (after all, he IS the hero).  But there's plenty of precedent for strong female roles in the Indy pantheon.  Marion, as you pointed out, could drink just about any guy under the table.  Furthermore, while she may still run like a girl (that always did bug me.  Lift your knees, dammit!), she can still kick a little ass.  Yes, she needs Indy to save her when the Nazis raid her bar, and yes, Indy does rescue her a number of times when she's helpless, but she still throws a punch like a guy, and can wield a frying pan with the best of 'em.  As for an intellectual and sexual equal, we already have Ilsa, who was both aggressive sexually ("I don't like fast women.") and just as educated in the realm of archaeology as Indy was.  Just because a girl's pretty doesn't mean she ain't smart or tough, as these two women clearly proove.

: Now, I'm not saying we emasculate Indy and have him become completely helpless.  Admittedly, part of the charm of Indy as a character is that he's basically a swashbuckler.  He does save the girl and win the day in the end (unless the girl is a Nazi sympathizer.  oops!).  But that doesn't mean that whatever girl is in the movie necessarily has to be completely helpless and inept.  I, for one, have ALWAYS hated the character of Willie.  Kate Capshaw is a beautiful woman, and a talented actress.  But her character, through no fault of her own, just pissed me off.  All she did was scream and complain throughout the movie.  She's useless.  My ideal Indy girl would be one who combines Marion's toughness with Ilsa's intellect, and either Willie's or Ilsa's looks.  (not that I have anything against brunettes, mind you)  That's basically what I'm advocating for as a female character.  Furthermore, keep in mind that just because the girl in my scene kicks the crap out of the bad guys, that doesn't mean that she won't, at some point, be tied to a chair being slowly lowered into a pool of ravenous tiger sharks (or ill-tempered sea bass, if we can't get the sharks), while screaming for Indy to help her at some point.  :)  Rest assured, Indy is STILL the hero.  He's still the guy who saves the day.  The girl just isn't always in need of his help, and can take care of herself most of the time.

: Incidentally, I disagree that women were not "on the same level" as men in the 30's and 40's (or 50's in the case of my proposed -- and currently rather skeletal -- plot).  I think, in fact, that what you're pointing out is that the idealized notion of women during this time period, which was often portrayed in popular cinema of the time, was one where women were typically incapable or, at the very least, defferential towards men.  In actuality, there were plenty of strong women at that time.  I mean, hell, look at Rosie the Riveter.  Or Mae West.  Or plenty of other non-famous icons who worked in factories, ran businesses, or fought in the People's Liberation Army in China.  The public image of women at the time, I'm arguing, is not necessarily how things ACTUALLY were.  :)

: Now then, on to some other points, brought up in other threads (we really should combine all the Indy IV threads into one separate forum...).  I do NOT like the idea of more generations of Joneses.  Dad was enough.  The daughter thing is intriguing, but I agree that it would rob Indy of some of who he is.  Admittedly, age will do this to a certain degree, and being around trained female martial artists would similarly do so, but ultimately, I think Indy's not the family type.  I mean, it's not like he has a great role model for that kind of behavior, anyway.  From what we can tell in the movies, his dad and he hardly had any kind of relationship at all.  As for bringing Short Round back, it's interesting, but I think that, if he's back, he should be somewhat of an independent type.  Perhaps he's escaped China after the communist take-over, or perhaps he's joined in simply in order to survive.  At any rate, I think he should play a minor role.  Maybe we're not even entirely sure it's Short Round until later in the movie when he reveals himself to Indy.  Who knows.

: As for anyone BUT Harrison Ford playing Indy, were I the producer, I would absolutely veto it.  If Ford won't do the picture, the picture won't be made.  That's because Ford IS Indy.  I mean, honestly, can you really imagine anyone else doing justice to the role?  Some people have said we could pass the torch, a la James Bond.  And yes, they could do it.  But, like with James Bond, while the subsequent movies might be entertaining, they would never really recapture the magic of the originals.  I mean, honestly, to me, James Bond IS Sean Connery.  He's just been PLAYED by other actors.  :)  Don't get me started on the Bond thing, though...  Part of the appeal of Indy is that he does age, he is human, and he has weaknesses.  Look at the scene in the boat in Raiders.  Like he says, it ain't the years, it's the mileage.  And any new Indy movie would have to incorporate both years AND mileage.  That's the thing, though, despite all of that, despite the fact that Indy'd basically be 15 years older now, and has been on plenty of other adventures, he's STILL tough.  Maybe not as tough as he used to be, maybe he doesn't bounce back from a beating quite as fast, but he still holds his own and can kick ass.  Anyway, here endeth the thoughts for now.  :)  I'll undoubtedly post more at a later date.

: Dan Shay

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