Re: I am afraid history has always been written by the victors. A bit one sided to say the least. (nm)

Posted by Sam Cox from pt45-60.5300-1.bluep.com on December 31, 2000 at 02:48:21:

In Reply to: I am afraid history has always been written by the victors. A bit one sided to say the least. (nm) posted by Fedora on December 29, 2000 at 19:03:02:

: : : Just curious, in the Indy movies all of the Germans are portrayed as bumbling buffoons that could easily be defeated with just a little intelligence, same goes with the Russians in Infernal Machine. I know that it was based on the serials of the 30's-40's, but that was back when there were a lot of foreign prejudices due to the ongoing wars of the times. I once knew a German girl who was disgusted with the American cliches portrayed in the movies and TV shows(like Hogan's Heroes)and she was appalled that Germans could still be portrayed like idiots and the Americans came out looking like the intelligent people. Are there any Germans on this forum? If so, what do you think about this? Do you guys still think it's currently appropriate to portray people like this?(assuming there will be an Indy4)

: : I'm American, not German, but Don't you think it's being taken a little too seriously? By that I mean yes, Hogan's Heroes, Indy, etc. make fun of Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, but I don't see it as a slight against the country so much as a slight against the systems they represent. Portraying Nazis as stupid is something that dates all the way back to Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" or even the old 30's and 40's Looney Tunes cartoons. Do you see modern setting Germans being ridiculed this way in films? In order for that type of humor to work effectively, someone has to be the butt of the joke, and that often means someone has to appear stupid.

: : It's not particular to Nazi's or Communists. Do you think, based on Abbott and Costello or Laurel and Hardy that half of American men are tall skinny straight men and half are short, fat, buffoons?

: : Strictly in my opinion, the reason why Americans come off so well in films is because it's the most massive PR campaign in the history of the world, not for a product, but for a way of life. We as a culture, I think, have our priorities bass-ackwards, where we think happiness starts with being something other than you. This is why we spend millions of dollars every year on wrinkle creams, dietary supplements, exercise equipment, pimple remover, etc. It's part of this same drive for visual perfection that we ended up being the largest producer of cinema in the world. It's a big ego boost for the collective American self-consciousness. That's why Harrison Ford or Sean Connery make $20mil. a picture, and baseball players $4mil/year. Being the largest producer of movies, and naturally wanting to feel good about yourself, Americans are usually the good guys. The American mainstream is a short-sighted thing. It wants to be thin, wrinkle-free, physically perfect, eternally young, and always right, because that's what our media outlets are trying to convince us we need. I don't see it therefore that we as Americans are trying to talk down to others or convince ourselves that we're better than other countries so much as provide ourselves a good pat on the back, so to speak.

: : The danger is not in a comedic situation, but serious drama. This is one of the problems I have with "the Patriot" .. not that it paints British soldiers during the U.S. revolution badly, but that it paints actual people in an untrue manner in a dramatic setting. By all historical accounts, Cornwallis was nothing like he was portrayed in the movie. By contrast 'Hogan's Heroes' was a blatent comedy with no real characters.

: : Comparatively, there aren't as many Communist buffoons as Nazi. The reason Nazi's are picked on (again IMO) is not because they are German, but because NAZI Germans are really the only almost universally accepted bad guy. They have almost no support from historians of any nationality or reputation. Sad but true, I also think it's a little of "to the winner go the spoils." Aside from everything else that would've happened had Hitler won WWII, there is also one other thing you can be sure of. If he had won, people of Allied countries in a '30's and '40's setting of today's movies would be made out to be as big if not bigger idiots in comedies than Nazis are now.

: : One final thought. Almost all movies tend to portray in strict black and white for simplicity's sake. It's not just Americans who are good guys, just disproportionately so because of where most movies are made. Braveheart was Scottish, and is guilty of the same transgression I blame Patriot for. (Way to go, Mel!)

: : BK
Brian,that was exactly the way i would have put it.(way to go BK)
P.S Mel Gibson is an Australian rewriting the worlds history and must be stopped

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: : : : Just curious, in the Indy movies all of the Germans are portrayed as bumbling buffoons that could easily be defeated with just a little intelligence, same goes with the Russians in Infernal Machine. I know that it was based on the serials of the 30's-40's, but that was back when there were a lot of foreign prejudices due to the ongoing wars of the times. I once knew a German girl who was disgusted with the American cliches portrayed in the movies and TV shows(like Hogan's Heroes)and she was appalled that Germans could still be portrayed like idiots and the Americans came out looking like the intelligent people. Are there any Germans on this forum? If so, what do you think about this? Do you guys still think it's currently appropriate to portray people like this?(assuming there will be an Indy4)

: : : I'm American, not German, but Don't you think it's being taken a little too seriously?  By that I mean yes, Hogan's Heroes, Indy, etc. make fun of Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, but I don't see it as a slight against the country so much as a slight against the systems they represent.  Portraying Nazis as stupid is something that dates all the way back to Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" or even the old 30's and 40's Looney Tunes cartoons.  Do you see modern setting Germans being ridiculed this way in films?  In order for that type of humor to work effectively, someone has to be the butt of the joke, and that often means someone has to appear stupid.

: : : It's not particular to Nazi's or Communists.  Do you think, based on Abbott and Costello or Laurel and Hardy that half of American men are tall skinny straight men and half are short, fat, buffoons?

: : : Strictly in my opinion, the reason why Americans come off so well in films is because it's the most massive PR campaign in the history of the world, not for a product, but for a way of life.  We as a culture, I think, have our priorities bass-ackwards, where we think happiness starts with being something other than you.  This is why we spend millions of dollars every year on wrinkle creams, dietary supplements, exercise equipment, pimple remover, etc.  It's part of this same drive for visual perfection that we ended up being the largest producer of cinema in the world.  It's a big ego boost for the collective American self-consciousness.  That's why Harrison Ford or Sean Connery make $20mil. a picture, and baseball players $4mil/year.  Being the largest producer of movies, and naturally wanting to feel good about yourself, Americans are usually the good guys.  The American mainstream is a short-sighted thing.  It wants to be thin, wrinkle-free, physically perfect, eternally young, and always right, because that's what our media outlets are trying to convince us we need.  I don't see it therefore that we as Americans are trying to talk down to others or convince ourselves that we're better than other countries so much as provide ourselves a good pat on the back, so to speak.

: : : The danger is not in a comedic situation, but serious drama.  This is one of the problems I have with "the Patriot"  .. not that it paints British soldiers during the U.S. revolution badly, but that it paints actual people in an untrue manner in a dramatic setting.  By all historical accounts, Cornwallis was nothing like he was portrayed in the movie.  By contrast 'Hogan's Heroes' was a blatent comedy with no real characters.

: : : Comparatively, there aren't as many Communist buffoons as Nazi.  The reason Nazi's are picked on (again IMO) is not because they are German, but because NAZI Germans are really the only almost universally accepted bad guy.  They have almost no support from historians of any nationality or reputation.  Sad but true, I also think it's a little of "to the winner go the spoils."  Aside from everything else that would've happened had Hitler won WWII, there is also one other thing you can be sure of.  If he had won, people of Allied countries in a '30's and '40's setting of today's movies would be made out to be as big if not bigger idiots in comedies than Nazis are now.

: : : One final thought.  Almost all movies tend to portray in strict black and white for simplicity's sake.  It's not just Americans who are good guys, just disproportionately so because of where most movies are made.  Braveheart was Scottish, and is guilty of the same transgression I blame Patriot for.  (Way to go, Mel!)

: : : BK
: Brian,that was exactly the way i would have put it.(way to go BK)
: P.S Mel Gibson is an Australian rewriting the worlds history and must be stopped

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