Re: Petersham vs Grosgrain fedora ribbon

Posted by Indy Sean from 24-164-153-78.nyc.rr.com on January 12, 2001 at 20:03:06:

In Reply to: Re: Petersham vs Grosgrain fedora ribbon posted by Greg on January 12, 2001 at 19:09:17:

Thanks! It's enough to drive an Indyfan crazy!!!

: : After observing the petersham ribbon on my hj fedora,
: : compared to the grosgrain on the disney indy 551, there seems
: : to be very little difference.

: : Is there a way to tell the difference between petersham and
: : grosgrain? When I ordered the hj hat I asked for the authentic
: : Petersham 39mm so it's supposed to be one, but how do I know
: : for sure it's a petersham now that I have it?

:
: I'm waiting to get an answer on this from some milliners, but I spent a lot of time on this issue myself. I talked with over 50 hatters and at least 10 different ribbon manufacturers and found only a handful of folks who were even familiar with the name Petersham. Ronnie Hendler from Hyman Hendler Ribbonerie in NYC told me that Petersham was a sawtooth grosgrain that has an un-bound edge. I ordered some of their "Petersham" and it definitely had more of a sawtooth edge. I then came across Catherine Delaney in the UK who professed to stock Petersham ribbon and I ordered several yards from her. That ribbon was very nice, less of a sawtooth edge but still unbound. Apparently, this ribbon is also used as a lining in skirt hems, waistlines, and the like, which might account for the unbound edge (to lay flat with no ridges to show through). Now, the first time I'd heard the word was from Richard Swales at Herbert Johnson. He said that the original ribbon used on all of the film hats was Petersham ribbon taken from an 80 year old cake of ribbon. This ribbon ran out after the 40+ hats between the films and young indy series were made. Now, when I ordered a second hat from HJ two years ago, Mr. Swales had remembered our phone conversation and said that he had just sent the small swatch of the original ribbon he'd saved off to Spain to be reproduced and when it came back, he'd be happy to send me some for my hat. I receive it all right but it had a thin, bound edge. So I'm thinking, what am I to do? The color and width were dead on, and matched with the brown of the felt, looked like a dead ringer for the Last Crusade Hat. The trouble? After examining several dozen photos from last Crusade, I found evidence that both kinds of ribbon were used. I then looked at Raiders and Temple and the same thing happened. Both unbound and bound edge ribbon is evidenced on Indy's hat. The only conclusion I could come to is that they used both kinds. A fellow indy Colleague was kind enough to photograph the hat at the Smithsonian and describe the ribbon he saw on it. He photographed and described a bound-edge ribbon. Crazy stuff. This really drove me batty for a long time until I finally decided to let it go and be happy with the ribbon HJ sent me. The color and size is dead on and it at least matches EXACTLY the ribbon at the Smithsonian, which we know to be at least ONE of the hats! Hope this little treatise helps you!

: Greg

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: Thanks! It's enough to drive an Indyfan crazy!!!

: 
: : : 	After observing the petersham ribbon on my hj fedora, 
: : : compared to the grosgrain on the disney indy 551, there seems 
: : : to be very little difference.

: : : Is there a way to tell the difference between petersham and 
: : : grosgrain? When I ordered the hj hat I asked for the authentic 
: : : Petersham 39mm so it's supposed to be one, but how do I know 
: : : for sure it's a petersham now that I have it?

: : 
: : I'm waiting to get an answer on this from some milliners, but I spent a lot of time on this issue myself.  I talked with over 50 hatters and at least 10 different ribbon manufacturers and found only a handful of folks who were even familiar with the name Petersham.  Ronnie Hendler from Hyman Hendler Ribbonerie in NYC told me that Petersham was a sawtooth grosgrain that has an un-bound edge.  I ordered some of their "Petersham" and it definitely had more of a sawtooth edge.  I then came across Catherine Delaney in the UK who professed to stock Petersham ribbon and I ordered several yards from her.  That ribbon was very nice, less of a sawtooth edge but still unbound.  Apparently, this ribbon is also used as a lining in skirt hems, waistlines, and the like, which might account for the unbound edge (to lay flat with no ridges to show through).  Now, the first time I'd heard the word was from Richard Swales at Herbert Johnson.  He said that the original ribbon used on all of the film hats was Petersham ribbon taken from an 80 year old cake of ribbon.  This ribbon ran out after the 40+ hats between the films and young indy series were made.  Now, when I ordered a second hat from HJ two years ago, Mr. Swales had remembered our phone conversation and said that he had just sent the small swatch of the original ribbon he'd saved off to Spain to be reproduced and when it came back, he'd be happy to send me some for my hat.  I receive it all right but it had a thin, bound edge.  So I'm thinking, what am I to do?  The color and width were dead on, and matched with the brown of the felt, looked like a dead ringer for the Last Crusade Hat.  The trouble?  After examining several dozen photos from last Crusade, I found evidence that both kinds of ribbon were used.  I then looked at Raiders and Temple and the same thing happened.  Both unbound and bound edge ribbon is evidenced on Indy's hat.  The only conclusion I could come to is that they used both kinds.  A fellow indy Colleague was kind enough to photograph the hat at the Smithsonian and describe the ribbon he saw on it.  He photographed and described a bound-edge ribbon.  Crazy stuff.  This really drove me batty for a long time until I finally decided to let it go and be happy with the ribbon HJ sent me.  The color and size is dead on and it at least matches EXACTLY the ribbon at the Smithsonian, which we know to be at least ONE of the hats!  Hope this little treatise helps you!

: : Greg

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