Re: Someone please help me!!!

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Posted by Greg from kenn001a-p3-145.cybertours.com on January 13, 2001 at 10:09:40:

In Reply to: Re: Someone please help me!!! posted by Fedora on January 13, 2001 at 00:35:05:

: : Oh no!
: : that opens up a new line of questioning... i.e.:

: : 1. what exactly is sawtooth (do you mean ribbed like the edge of a quarter)?

: : 2. and what is the difference between bound and unbound? There seems to be stitching on the edge of my ribbon...

: : 3. and finally, what??? there's a unsureness about the bow, too?
: : Does double bow mean that there is another layer of the knotted bow part? I have this on mine but strangely, they stitched this above the front bow, and only on the right? What's the correct way?

: : This may be getting real technical and I apologize if I am too inquiring, but I figure here is the only place I won't sound like a crazy fan..

: : Thanks in advance for your comments.

: :
: : : : : : : 2?hd\erving the petersham ribbon on my hj fedora,
: : : : : : : compared to the grosgrain on the disney indy 551, there seems
: : : : : : : to be very little difference.

: : : : : : : Is there a way to tell the difference between petersham and
: : : : : : : grosgrain? When I ordered the hj hat I asked for the authentic
: : : : : : : Petersham 39mm so it's supposed to be one, but how do I know
: : : : : : : for sure it's a petersham now that I have it?

: : : : In particular, I have two old 12 month Indy calendars-you know the ones with the large photos for each month, and there are nice close-ups (larger than real life in fact) of Ford and the hat ribbon is clearly visible. One is a Temple of Doom calendar and the other is the LC. The ribbon has an unbound edge in both of these photos (one from each) It is the LC photo that stands out the most to me as evidence that at least some of the LC hats had unbound ribbon and other LC hats had bound ribbon (the Smithsonian hat). And then in the LC calendar of all places, there is a close up of Indy from Raiders (very bad editing on the part of the calendar producers) and this hat has a bound-edge ribbon. It seems that the Raiders hats were more consistent than the LC hats with their ribbon. I will try to get a scan of the photos at some point and I can email them to folks...

: : : : Greg

: : : : : :
: : : : : : I'm waiting to get an answer on this from some milliners, but I spent a lot of time on this issue myself. I talked with over 50 hatters and at least 10 different ribbon manufacturers and found only a handful of folks who were even familiar with the name Petersham. Ronnie Hendler from Hyman Hendler Ribbonerie in NYC told me that Petersham was a sawtooth grosgrain that has an un-bound edge. I ordered some of their "Petersham" and it definitely had more of a sawtooth edge. I then came across Catherine Delaney in the UK who professed to stock Petersham ribbon and I ordered several yards from her. That ribbon was very nice, less of a sawtooth edge but still unbound. Apparently, this ribbon is also used as a lining in skirt hems, waistlines, and the like, which might account for the unbound edge (to lay flat with no ridges to show through). Now, the first time I'd heard the word was from Richard Swales at Herbert Johnson. He said that the original ribbon used on all of the film hats was Petersham ribbon taken from an 80 year old cake of ribbon. This ribbon ran out after the 40+ hats between the films and young indy series were made. Now, when I ordered a second hat from HJ two years ago, Mr. Swales had remembered our phone conversation and said that he had just sent the small swatch of the original ribbon he'd saved off to Spain to be reproduced and when it came back, he'd be happy to send me some for my hat. I receive it all right but it had a thin, bound edge. So I'm thinking, what am I to do? The color and width were dead on, and matched with the brown of the felt, looked like a dead ringer for the Last Crusade Hat. The trouble? After examining several dozen photos from last Crusade, I found evidence that both kinds of ribbon were used. I then looked at Raiders and Temple and the same thing happened. Both unbound and bound edge ribbon is evidenced on Indy's hat. The only conclusion I could come to is that they used both kinds. A fellow indy Colleague was kind enough to photograph the hat at the Smithsonian and describe the ribbon he saw on it. He photographed and described a bound-edge ribbon. Crazy stuff. This really drove me batty for a long time until I finally decided to let it go and be happy with the ribbon HJ sent me. The color and size is dead on and it at least matches EXACTLY the ribbon at the Smithsonian, which we know to be at least ONE of the hats! Hope this little treatise helps you!

: : : : : : Greg

: : : :
: : : : :
: : : : : I have read your past posts regarding the saw tooth variety of Petersham. My question is, what scenes in the films show the saw tooth ribbon? I can't for the life of me spot them. The only thing that I have noticed is that some of the hats have a double bow,and some a single bow. Thanks, Fedora

: The double bow refers to two layers making up the bow, instead of one. The double bows that I have seen appear only on the rear side of the knot. You can clearly see this in the scene from TOD where Indy is interpreting what the old man is saying. Apparently some of the variations in hats in this particular movie included the type of bows used. This lends credence to the statements on Indy Gear regarding the various hats used in this film. It looks as if several hat makers furnished fedoras for this film. As far as the ribbon question, Greg would be much better at answering this. He has spent alot of time researching this. Regards, Fedora


Sorry, first I'd like to apologize for jumping around in the reply around our various posts. I've gone to the very bottom of our posts for this one....

Sawtooth ribbon is just as you've surmised-has a ridged look like sawteeth or the edge of a quarter. It has no perpendicular-running seam or bound edge, but if you look at it closely, the vertical ribbing of the ribbon appears to "snake" back and forth making up the ribbon. Seamed or bound edge ribbon has stitching that runs the length of the ribbon on the very edge. Yes, your ribbon is bound-edged and not sawtooth. It is exactly the same kind of ribbon I have on my HJ and exactly the same kind of ribbon we see evidenced on the Raiders hats most often and on the Smithsonian LC hat. I will see if I can scan some actual sawtooth ribbon, as I have some.

Greg



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