Thanks so much..

Posted by Indy Sean from 24-164-153-78.nyc.rr.com on January 15, 2001 at 15:10:56:

In Reply to: Re: For Greg, the Ribbon expert ;) posted by Greg on January 15, 2001 at 13:38:09:

thanks so much for your patience and detailed comments. I guess I have a grosgrain but since I'm going for the Raiders look it doesn't matter as much. By the way, my ribbon is not 39 mm but a very clear 38. Oh, well. So much for details...

-----

: Sorry for any confusion. Yes, I am referring to the top and bottom edges of the ribbon. Petersham is a type of sawtooth ribbon that has smaller "teeth" than normal sawtooth ribbon. From a distance of say two feet, it will appear to be smooth edged. The seamed or bound-edge ribbon is grosgrain. However, what HJ had reproduced was the original ribbon used in Raiders. If you look at Raiders photos, you'll see that the ribbon in that film has bound edges, and is therefore a grosgrain. If you are going for a Raiders look with your hat, you are getting the most authentic ribbon you can buy since HJ had it replicated. You'll never get exact since the original ribbon is long gone. Older ribbon like that is of the highest quality, made from 50% rayon and 50% cotton. Modern ribbon is almost always made from 100% polyester. However, some ribboneries are still making the authentic 50/50 stuff. I personally think that Mr. Swales may be confusing the ribbon from the last two movies with the original Raiders ribbon and calling all of it Petersham, though the ToD and LC ribbon is more properly called Petersham, with an unbound edge. If you are going for the LC or ToD look, and are looking for excellent quality Petersham ribbon, try Catherine Delaney in the UK. She sells some very nice dark brown 39mm Petersham that is almost identical to the ribbon on the film hats from LC and Temple. I am going to seek some ribbon from some other sources as well.

: Greg

: : Hi,
: : I'm getting a little confused; I thought you meant that sawtooth referred to the ribbon itself being ridged like the edge of a quarter, but as I understand it you are referring to top and bottom edges of the ribbon itself, sort of being like a sawblade (zigzag) or looking like being cut by (very small!) pinking shears?

: : Do some of the hats used in the movies have a smooth ribbon with no ridges whatsoever on the ribbon itself because the photos I see on the net are mostly bad quality so I can't see any detail. My HJ ribbon is ridged and seamed; in design almost identical to the picture at the following link on Indygear:

: : http://www.indygear.com/gear/images/custom5.jpg

: : This ribbon has a seamed edge so I assume it is a Grosgrain? which would mean that my HJ ribbon is also a Grosgrain and therefore NOT the authentic Petersham I asked for, true or false?

: : ---

: : : Here is the scoop on Petersham ribbon. What we are seeing in Raiders
: : : was grosgrain ribbon, as it is seamed or has a bound edge. What we
: : : see in half of the LC is grosgrain as it had a bound edge. What we
: : : see on the Smithsonian hat is grosgrain as it has a bound edge. What
: : : we see on some of the LC and all of the ToD photos have an unbound
: : : edge (sawtooth) and is therefore referred to as Petersham ribbon or
: : : Millinery belting. It is indeed used as a facing material inside the
: : : hems and waists of women's skirts, and was often used in hat making
: : : because without the bound edge, the ribbon easily forms a nice curve
: : : to fit around the crown of a hat, which is invariably conical rather
: : : than cylindrical unless we're talking about a top hat or a pork pie.
: : : Grosgrain needs to be ironed into a slight curve in order to wrap
: : : around the hat and fit snug against the crown. If you just wrap it
: : : around the crown, it will be loose toward the top. I don't know if
: : : this makes sense. I will see if I can scan some of the different
: : : ribbon to show you all...I don't have a scanner so I will have to do
: : : it at work. I'll also try to scan some photos of Indy's hats to
: : : demonstrate the difference actually occured throughout ToD and LC.
: : : Take a look at ToD photos closely. All of the hats in that film had
: : : the Petersham ribbon. Take a look at the tank chase scenes from LC.
: : : That hat has the Petersham ribbon. Not sure why the differe

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: thanks so much for your patience and detailed comments. I guess I have a grosgrain but since I'm going for the Raiders look it doesn't matter as much. By the way, my ribbon is not 39 mm but a very clear 38. Oh, well. So much for details...

: -----

: : Sorry for any confusion.  Yes, I am referring to the top and bottom edges of the ribbon.  Petersham is a type of sawtooth ribbon that has smaller "teeth" than normal sawtooth ribbon.  From a distance of say two feet, it will appear to be smooth edged.  The seamed or bound-edge ribbon is grosgrain.  However, what HJ had reproduced was the original ribbon used in Raiders.  If you look at Raiders photos, you'll see that the ribbon in that film has bound edges, and is therefore a grosgrain.  If you are going for a Raiders look with your hat, you are getting the most authentic ribbon you can buy since HJ had it replicated.  You'll never get exact since the original ribbon is long gone.  Older ribbon like that is of the highest quality, made from 50% rayon and 50% cotton.  Modern ribbon is almost always made from 100% polyester.  However, some ribboneries are still making the authentic 50/50 stuff.  I personally think that Mr. Swales may be confusing the ribbon from the last two movies with the original Raiders ribbon and calling all of it Petersham, though the ToD and LC ribbon is more properly called Petersham, with an unbound edge.  If you are going for the LC or ToD look, and are looking for excellent quality Petersham ribbon, try Catherine Delaney in the UK.  She sells some very nice dark brown 39mm Petersham that is almost identical to the ribbon on the film hats from LC and Temple.  I am going to seek some ribbon from some other sources as well.

: : Greg

: : : Hi,
: : : I'm getting a little confused; I thought you meant that sawtooth referred to the ribbon itself being ridged like the edge of a quarter, but as I understand it you are referring to top and bottom edges of the ribbon itself, sort of being like a sawblade (zigzag) or looking like being cut by (very small!) pinking shears?

: : : Do some of the hats used in the movies have a smooth ribbon with no ridges whatsoever on the ribbon itself because the photos I see on the net are mostly bad quality so I can't see any detail. My HJ ribbon is ridged and seamed; in design almost identical to the picture at the following link on Indygear:

: : : http://www.indygear.com/gear/images/custom5.jpg

: : : This ribbon has a seamed edge so I assume it is a Grosgrain? which would mean that my HJ ribbon is also a Grosgrain and therefore NOT the authentic Petersham I asked for, true or false?

: : : ---

: : : : Here is the scoop on Petersham ribbon.  What we are seeing in Raiders 
: : : : was grosgrain ribbon, as it is seamed or has a bound edge.  What we 
: : : : see in half of the LC is grosgrain as it had a bound edge.  What we 
: : : : see on the Smithsonian hat is grosgrain as it has a bound edge.  What 
: : : : we see on some of the LC and all of the ToD photos have an unbound 
: : : : edge (sawtooth) and is therefore referred to as Petersham ribbon or 
: : : : Millinery belting.  It is indeed used as a facing material inside the 
: : : : hems and waists of women's skirts, and was often used in hat making 
: : : : because without the bound edge, the ribbon easily forms a nice curve 
: : : : to fit around the crown of a hat, which is invariably conical rather 
: : : : than cylindrical unless we're talking about a top hat or a pork pie.  
: : : : Grosgrain needs to be ironed into a slight curve in order to wrap 
: : : : around the hat and fit snug against the crown.  If you just wrap it 
: : : : around the crown, it will be loose toward the top.  I don't know if 
: : : : this makes sense.  I will see if I can scan some of the different 
: : : : ribbon to show you all...I don't have a scanner so I will have to do 
: : : : it at work.  I'll also try to scan some photos of Indy's hats to 
: : : : demonstrate the difference actually occured throughout ToD and LC.  
: : : : Take a look at ToD photos closely.  All of the hats in that film had 
: : : : the Petersham ribbon.  Take a look at the tank chase scenes from LC.  
: : : : That hat has the Petersham ribbon.  Not sure why the differe

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