In my part of the country, this sounds like the pot calling the kettle black...

[ Reply ] [ The Indyfan Forum ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Fedora from ppp-142.col.cableone.net on August 19, 2001 at 12:54:48:

In Reply to: Re: My Last Post, or an "indulgence", if you will. posted by MIchael G. Ryan on August 19, 2001 at 12:02:24:

: Well, Austin, my intention was neither to convince you that you belong in some other forum nor to stire sentiment against you. But given your obstinance in insisting that my hat ribbon looks fake and Photoshopped when I'm telling you that it's not, I have to agree with you: you and I have nothing else to discuss. A man who will not have his mind changed is a limited man. Courtesy is not "sugar-coating"; and *everyone* should be worried about offending others when they engage in heated debates. Again, it's just common courtesy. You can disagree with people and people can disagree with you, but people like to believe they've been heard and treated fairly, and I know that I don't feel you're willing to begrudge either of those things. That dilutes any worthwhile information you might have to share with others; it's hard to be appreciate for the helping-hand up in the aftermath of a mean-spirited put-down. It sounds to me as if you want to have sole propietorship of the right to be on the offense, and most folks--particuarly folks in an anonymous forum covering a topic they feel very passionate about--will not and should not concede that right.

: Perhaps the decline in the forum since your arrival in 1999 has something to do *with* your arrival in 1999.

: For the sake of anyone else following this discussion, I'll include your comment below and note again: Indygear is not the sole source of information about the whips. You might note that the whipmaker is about 30 miles down the road from where I live, Austin. I know you're arguing that Indygear, which has this same information that the whipmaker in Washington state has (and the same information that at least two other websites has), is the definitive source of this concept, it isn't. It's a common piece of advice about the whip. It isn't a direct quote from any single source, and therefore unattributable. I majored in English in college while you were still *learning* English, Austin; this is research, not plagiarism. I continue to agree that Indygear has excellent information (and is an "anauthorized" page and therefore off the list of sites Lucasfilm would let me direct fans to), and while it is an excellent site on the clothes, it is not the *sole* source for *any* information. By definition, the *makers* of the articles in question provide a *second* source for that information.

: : Michael G. Ryan writes(about the whip),
: :
: : "The natural tan gets darker when exposed to sunlight and weathering."
: :

: : IndyGear's Whip FAQ reads,
: :
: : "When you get [the whip], it will be a very light pinkish brown color, called natural tan. To darken it, as it appears in the movies, you should expose it to natural sunlight..."
: :

: Austin writes...
: : As for your offer to meet offline, I'm not interested. I have no desire to answer your, what is almost literally a duel request. I also feel no need whatsoever to give you, or anyone for that matter, my real name. Again, if you are so bothered by criticism of your work, then I feel you're not suited for a career in the public eye. My comments were cake compared to what some critics say about the work of others.

: Again, I'll reiterate: I *am* bothered by criticism--just as *you* seem to be--and particularly by criticism that I feel is unfair and made in a public forum where others might draw the same erroneous conclusion without all the data. Where I might appear mistaken, I'll concede it and try to explain it (the absence of Indy-related websites in my article, for example), or, if I'm simply flat-out wrong, I'll apologize.

: In that spirit, it's possible that I've made a mistake in seeking out this forum to defend the article, if only because I've generated some anti-Austin sentiment that, whether it's been brewing over time or not, I was deliberately trying to avoid. I'd ask anyone who thinks to respond to these emails by ridiculing Austin to please not; I feel bad about this as it is, despite my incredible annoyance with Austin for his responses to me and his unwillingness to retract or even alter his previous comments about my work (or even my hat, for crying out loud). Nonetheless, if I've contributed to making Austin feel unwelcome in the forum--again noting that this is a forum for people who feel passionate about Indy, and Austin is one of those--then I apologize. I'm very sorry, Austin.

: As for the "duel..." No, Austin, I'm not looking to duel or fistfight or crack whips at one another. But it's been my observation that folks who are obstinate and unwilling to honor the rules of debate--concede and withdraw, respond and advance--in a forum or via email are much more flexible, reasonable, and even *right* in person. I was looking for resolution to this debate, a resolution that wouldn't result in either you saying, "That's it; I'm out of this entire forum because I feel picked on" or me saying, "This guy's an idiot and I've made my point; screw him and horse he rode in on." I preferred to see this end with each of us feeling heard, respected, and, on some level, content with the outcome. A face-to-face discussion would have brought that about much quicker. So... I'll leaving my dueling pistols at home, if you wanna take this debate offline.

: And finally, whether your comments about my work were "cake" or not is academic. There were critical; I felt they were unfair. I've taken criticism before that was accurate, and I didn't even put up a fight because I was wrong. In either case, however, I needn't justify having a negative reaction to criticism. I felt *you* were wrong here, and I continue to feel that way. And I'll continue to take my lumps for working in a public forum--just as you will, if you keep saying things in public that people disagree with. My advice: get used to it, and don't run from it. But if your critics are blasting you for something repeatedly, perhaps there's merit to it and you need to review your own actions and words. I gather you've developed a history of this sort of reaction, and it seems more logical to say that one guy's having some commmunication problems than to say that thirty people are.

: You seem like a smart guy, Austin, albeit an angry young man with a really, really strong sense of superiority. You may well *be* superior, for all I know, and that's a great thing to be--it can take you a long way. However, most folks don't like to be *told* if you're superior, and they certainly don't like to be dismissed for not being more like you. And being smarter or wittier or being better informed or having better insight than your peers doesn't give you the automatic right to be rude and to never be wrong.

: *You* may not be able to take a photo of my hat that makes the ribbon look that way, but *my wife* did, Austin. The photo's in the magazine; it wasn't Photoshopped, and I ought to know, because I worked on the layout of the magazine with Steve. See my point about "never being wrong"?

: Michael G. Ryan


...and the comment regarding Austin's arrival here in 1999, proves it. Like, I told Austin, let someone post here that has even a little bit of notoriety, and suddenly, we eat our own. It's happened several times in the past, the most memorable being, the incident with Patterson and "the jacket". He was thrown to the dogs, and basically the same thing has happened here, in my opinion. That's really what Austin is pissed off about. He just discovered that there is no "esprit de corps" here, and some of us are fickle enough to turn to mush whenever someone like yourself makes a post. Makes me want to puke, but at the same time confirms my suspicion about many of the folks here. Regards, Fedora


Follow Ups:


Post a Followup:

Name:    
E-Mail:  
Subject: 
Comments:

Optional:

Link URL:   
Link Title: 
Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Indyfan Forum ] [ FAQ ]